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Alex graduated from York a couple of years ago. He studied Law and is now a trainee at Norton Rose Fulbright. He tells us about the reality of being a trainee, the best and worse bits, and what it’s like doing your training from home during a pandemic. He has some good tips for future trainees.
Alex is a trainee solicitor in the Project Finance Team of Norton Rose Fulbright’s Banking Department. He works on transactions for the financing and construction of projects in the energy, infrastructure, and natural resources sectors in a range of jurisdictions.
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Transcript:
Kate
You’re listening to the ‘What Do You Actually Do?’ podcast. Each week we want to bring you an inspiring interview, a useful tip or encouraging message to help you find your place in the professional world. Hello and welcome to this episode of ‘What Do You Actually Do?’. My name is Kate Morris and I’ll be your host today. In today’s episode, we’ll be talking about working in law. Today we’re joined by Alex Stewart-Mareno, who’s a trainee solicitor with law firm Norton Rose Fulbright. So, Alex, what do you actually do?
Alex
So I’m a trainee, as you already introduced. I’m in my first seat. So it’s the first six month rotation out of four. That’s kind of a two year path to qualification.
Kate
So do you get to choose these rotations, or do you have to kind of just do what you’re told?
Alex
There’s an element of choice. I mean, depending on the firm, I know NRF, for example, is quite a big on banking, and so we always have to do at least one banking seat. And I think the usual rule is at least one corporate seat. There’s a bit more flexibility after that. So most people choose to do an international secondment, which is somewhat up in the year this year, as you can imagine.
Kate
Yeah.
Alex
Or a client secondment, which, those two tend to be a bit more of a career push. So if you’ve done a banking seat, you might sit with a bank, for example, as their in-house. And disputes and litigation tends to be a choice, but you have to do something of the kind, even if it’s just a training course. And, to be honest, with these big firms there’s always going to be an element of competition for seats, so it is subject of demand. There is an element of luck in it, I suppose, and I pity the people who have to allocate everyone to their respective seats, because I know they get put under a lot of pressure to try and meet everybody’s hopes, dreams and career aspirations. But you do kind of put down what areas, what teams, what departments you want to be in. So there is definitely an element of choice in them.
Kate
And do you kind of use this as an opportunity to test out the different areas, or do you already have a bit of an idea about where you want to specialise, sort of, following the training contract?
Alex
I mean, I actually did a vacation scheme – so an internship – with Norton Rose Fulbright, and I sat in their competition team. So to an extent I did know that I would quite like to try a competition seat, but that is quite a niche department.
Kate
So what is it? What is a competition seat?
Alex
So a competition is essentially the law of companies, when, obviously, they have to be competitive, they have to compete with each other, and for the market to work, that has to be the case. When they don’t compete, so the usual example is when they start fixing their prices together, and they both… When two companies, for example, come together and say, we’re going to set the prices of bread at this price. That’s anti-competitive, because it takes the element of choice out of the market. So that’s when the market fails. So the law kind of gets involved and says – hey, you can’t do that. And for companies on a day to day basis, whenever they’re looking to merge with each other, or they’re looking to employ new technologies even, they need to kind of navigate the regulations to see – ok, is what we’re doing about permitted, is it anti-competitive, could it be construed as anti-competitive. So it’s quite an interesting area, it’s one I actually did my dissertation on at York. But it is also quite a niche area, so it’s quite an oversubscribed one. So hopefully I’ll get the opportunity to do it, but on the other hand, potentially not. But I mean, I’m currently sitting in the banking seat in Project Finance, and I did kind of know going in that was, at least in principle, an area I would be interested in. As I say, it’s hard to know exactly before you go into it, there is an element of, you kind of have to be thrown into the deep end to really appreciate it, or not as it may happen. I’ve enjoyed my ones, I’ve been lucky so far. But yeah, you have to have some idea, and to be honest, when you’re going into a firm, if you’ve done your research, you tend to know what kinds of things you’re going to be faced with.
Kate
Talk us through a typical day for you. Because the sort of a stereotype of commercial lawyer is full on long hours, particularly the earlier stages in your career. What’s it like in reality?
Alex
Definitely at the moment it’s very different to how it was during the internship, for example, insofar that I can roll out of bed to my desk. So I suppose that does give me a half an hour lay in. But I mean, it definitely is long hours and it definitely is intense. But again, it’s swings and roundabouts. For example, in November, I had a bit of a quiet – I wouldn’t say completely quiet, but it was quieter. Into December/ January, this is for whatever reason tends to be this department’s busiest period. So hours do tend to kind of stretch on a little bit longer. And it’s not a case of, it’s not nine to five in the sense of you have strict hours, you just kind of work until the work gets done, even if you have to kind of be able to manage your own work and the deadlines and say – “ok, I can finish here tonight and carry on the next morning”, or just say – I just have to push through until it gets done.
Kate
How do you know… Because that’s a bit of a judgement call, right? Or is someone saying a hard deadline of, right, this has to be done by one o’clock in the morning tonight. Or can you kind of use your judgement of like, right. I’ve done as much as I can, I’ve concentrated as much as I can at the moment, or I’ve done as much as I need to do for today, I can pick it up again tomorrow. How do you know where to draw that line?
Alex
You tend to get most of your work from associates and they say – “Look, I need to get back to this client at this point. Can you get it done for me by then?” Usually with a bit of time between, so they can actually review your work. I always find it quite amusing when a lawyer says ‘by close of business’, because ‘close of business’ for a law firm could be midnight or later. To be honest, it is a judgement call. I have had things where I, if I know that the client will need it the next morning, you know, sometimes I do have to just quickly check what the time zone is, knowing that if they need it by the afternoon… For example, I had one where they needed everything done by 8pm Dubai time, which I think works out to about 5pm our time. So I kind of had to figure that out, that was my hard deadline. But sometimes it is just a case of – you speak to the associates giving you the work and you say – “Look, I’ve got X, Y and Z happening at the same time. Can I do this for you first thing tomorrow morning, or twelve o’clock tomorrow morning, or noon tomorrow morning?” And usually they are pretty forward with saying – “Look, I need this by this time”, or – Yes, that’s fine. You do what you think is right. That way you can also figure out how important your tasks are.
Kate
I was just going to ask, what sort of tasks might you be asked to do? What type of activities?
Alex
I mean, there’s a range and it kind of escalates as you go through your seat. Typical task right at the beginning was something called ‘conditions precedent checklists’, which is basically just a tick boxing exercise of documents as of when we get them through. But they’re really important, because if you don’t tick all of those boxes, the client won’t get the loan. And that is also actually a really good way of getting started as well, because it gets you used to all of the documents. As you can probably imagine, there are a lot of them for any given task. So it’s a nice kind of entry into it, and to be honest, I still do these checklists, kind of three-four months in, and probably will be doing it throughout my training contract. As you go along, you get more and more tasks. So there is an element of kind of more day to day compiling documents and making sure everything’s in order, and everything is saved properly on the system. But there’s also a lot of drafting, especially at this point in my seat. So I’ve been drafting letters, memos, and I mean, I’ve been drafting full contracts recently from examples and from precedents. And that’s kind of been a real eye opener, being thrown into the deep end and trying to understand how everything connects. I mean, there’s definitely a support mechanism in place, so you’ve got the associates who review your work before it goes out, but it does kind of escalate from admin to substantive work. I mean, everything is important, and if any piece went missing, then just the whole matter would probably fall to pieces, just based on this organisation.
Kate
It’s interesting because it really highlights how getting your ducks in a row is so important. And I guess having sort of done the real ground level stuff and understanding those basic administrative tasks, understanding those processes and what goes into them, that’s going to probably be really helpful in your future career when you’re not involved in those kind of little details in any way, but you know what is supposed to happen. And as you say, if any of that is wrong, it could throw the whole deal and cause a lot of problems.
Alex
Yeah, I mean, it is process driven. I mean, I know, for example, the CP checklists, part of what I do is kind of looking at all of the emails coming through, all of the documents coming through, making sure they’re saved to the right place, making sure we’ve got up to date notes of – “ok, we’ve got this and we need to review it” or “the other side has this so we can put that kind of on the backburner for now”. And obviously, everybody in the matter will be relying on that checklist to know – “ok, this is where we are, this is what we need to chase on, this what we don’t”. I mean, obviously, the partners who kind of have to have the overall project management, they need to know these things and they’re not necessarily going to have the time – or the clients won’t want them to, because obviously they charge more – to look at these things. So it kind of has to be for the trainee and kind of the lower level associates to sort out these things. And they are hugely important despite that, there is a lot of responsibility on your shoulders.
Kate
You mentioned one kind of aspect of the pandemic is you can roll out of bed, and you don’t have to commute into work. Are there any other sort of differences? I guess it’s quite handy that you’ve had the internship to understand what it would be like under normal circumstances kind of thing. But is there anything else that you feel is particularly different because of working remotely, or can you basically crack on with it the same as if you were in an office?
Alex
One of the phrases that seems to go around is ‘learning by osmosis’, which is obviously a lot easier when you’re in an office with your team, so you can overhear conversations, and you’re kind of always exposed to everything that’s going on. I suppose one of the challenges of the pandemic is you’re not that exposed. Sometimes it does feel a little bit enclosed, you’re in your own little bubble doing tasks. And I know, for example, NRF has always enjoyed an open door culture, which obviously is quite difficult when nobody’s actually in the office. But I mean, everybody is quite open to just calling each other, to an extent obviously, there’s always pleasantries that get exchanged, but everybody’s quite happy if you just call them saying – “look, I need some advice, I need some help on this task. Can you let me know?” Or even just sending an instant message on Skype to figure out what needs to be done. So, I mean, it’s very different to being in an office and being actually face to face with somebody. But I mean, it’s definitely making the most of a bad situation. And, I would definitely feel a lot more out of my depth if I didn’t have that mechanism in place. I still manage to talk to the associates I’m working for, talk to my supervisor just whenever I need to, just through instant messaging or through Skype calls.
Kate
So it sounds like whilst the work is kind of the same, it’s more that environment and the culture, and for you as a trainee, as you say, picking up on the language and kind of the other elements of being part of that law firm that is different.
Alex
Yeah, I mean, I don’t think it will ever be the same in that sense. But at the same time, and it’s something that’s been noticed, is when the office was more open, it tended to be kind of the trainees and the associates who went into the office more, which did work quite well in terms of you still get that exposure. I mean, it’s not bustling, but you get kind of an exposure to what’s required. At the end of the day, as the trainees and the associates you’ll be working on a day to day basis with, whilst the partners are there kind of making sure everything’s working at a kind of a higher level. One of the other trainees during a graduate recruitment event said something which really stuck with me, is if you want to learn day to day practical things, talk to the associates. If you want to learn kind of the higher level Law, or kind of commercial understandings, kind of that broader spectrum of the project, talk to the partners, because that tends to be where their focus lies. To be honest, it’s definitely true.
Kate
So, you did your degree in Law, so you’ve been planning your career for a long time. What was your starting point and where did your interest in Law come from?
Alex
Well, there’s a question. Usually when people first asked me this question, I was like – OK, well, I knew I wanted to do something vocational. I’m squeamish so that was medicine out. I’m not very good at maths, so that was engineering out. So that kind of left Law. But to be honest, in practice I do… I really like how businesses and how the markets work, but I don’t think I’d actually want to be an entrepreneur or a businessman. I feel like that’s… I like to be in that environment, but kind of giving advice on it, not necessarily being kind of front and centre in it. I don’t know if that makes a lot of sense.
Kate
No, it does. It’s useful that you are able to be self-aware enough to recognise that whilst you were interested in it, you perhaps didn’t like the lack of job security and structure, etc around you. So I think that’s a really kind of wise, if you like, observation to have had and probably at a young age, if it was part of your reason for choosing Law as a degree area.
Alex
Yeah, I think I always knew I was going to be in business, corporate law, as opposed to, I suppose, more personal law, in the sense of people. I suppose, I think it was just a case of how things connect. Obviously, when you work in – and especially in project finance I found – it’s how kind of social aspects, economic aspects, financial, political, all of these things connect and are immediately relevant to the law and to the businesses, and to your clients. And all of these things come together. And that’s kind of what I enjoy seeing, how, not only do you have to appreciate these things, but you have to kind of concentrate them into the contract you are writing, or the advice you’re giving. I suppose there’s an academic interest in one sense, but also it has very practical uses and ramifications. And I think that’s what I enjoy, that’s what I like seeing and exploring. And then even when you’re reading contracts or documents, and trying to give advice, you’re having to interpret the advice you’re giving based on these many interconnecting factors. And I suppose that’s what really struck an interest in commercial law, especially.
Kate
So you mentioned you did an internship, and I have done a little bit of LinkedIn stalking and seen that you did a lot of other kinds of work experience, as well as holding down a part time job. I’m just wondering, how did these kinds of experiences impact your career, both in terms of clarifying that, yeah, that’s definitely the way I want to go. But perhaps also in terms of some of the skills that you developed.
Alex
I mean, in terms of legal work experience, it was definitely a process of figuring out what I liked. So to an extent, there’s a lot of choices that you kind of have to make. I mean, when I went into university, I thought I definitely wanted to be a barista. And I think almost as soon as I started learning the law and kind of doing legal skills as a module, I figured out actually I don’t, I want to be a solicitor. And even then, there’s a lot of cultural differences, I mean barristers aren’t unemployed in firms, for example. So I knew I wanted that more structured firm than being essentially self-employed. And then, I mean, there’s other things like – do you want to go into kind of commercial or non-commercial law. I mean, I already said that that was a pretty easy choice for me. But after that, you even have choices like – do you want to go in at an international level or a national level. And all of these choices, you kind of have to get a feel for them either through internships or through link days, which the law school offered. Or just talking to them at career events, or just doing online research, and kind of all of these things narrowed quite a large pool of potential options to a select few. And then kind of holding down a part-time job at the same time, I mean, I always kind of said that my part-time job was kind of an escape from academia for one day a week. But I mean, even that was very useful. And I mean, it played no small part in my applications and interview processes. It was working in retail, so I understood how to talk to people, how to understand what they were looking for, understand what they wanted, understand what they could afford, and give advice based on that. And I mean, obviously, there’s a world of difference between selling suits and selling legal advice, but the same interpersonal connection and kind of being able to read situations, and read people, and actually get along with them, I suppose in a professional capacity, is important. And I have no doubt in my mind that working in retail has helped me a lot in terms of where I am now.
Kate
Is that something that you talked about in interviews and applications at all?
Alex
Absolutely. I mean, most – if not all – firms want to know, I mean, situations in which you’ve met or surpassed targets, or when you’ve had to overcome challenges, or just generally how you get on with people. Retail is definitely a great example of all of those things, even just things like cross-selling and up-selling, and down-selling, and all of that – in many ways reflects how firms work in terms of, if they’re giving you advice on one thing, chances are they could probably give you advice on another somewhat connected thing, kind of even as part of the same issue. There’s definitely similarities, and it was definitely interesting to explore those connections when writing applications.
Kate
That’s, I think, probably really reassuring for students, though, who haven’t managed to get an internship. Because it can be really difficult to get on a vacation scheme or a formal internship with a law firm. So the idea that you can kind of evaluate other experiences, in that firms – really decent firms – are genuinely interested in those transferable skills. But it sounds like it’s you who has to be making those links and connections, and exploring that. You can’t expect the employer to kind of infer – And then kind of, it sounds like by doing the link days, insight days, chatting to people, as you say, that is also another valid way of getting those work-related experiences.
Alex
Obviously, the law itself and just working in an office, it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. If you only do law-based career events or that kind of thing, you’ll only ever have exposure to that. I think to an extent, it’s very easy to get caught in that bubble, and you kind of have to explore the real world outside of that, especially kind of those early stages before you’re actually in the industry. It’s definitely important to try and get exposure to that and get experience in tha, and then see how it connects and kind of helps your career moving forward.
Kate
So it sounds like you really enjoy seeing the bigger picture, seeing the connections between things, and that law is giving you the opportunity to do that, as well as drill down into details. I’m wondering, what’s the worst bit of the job? Is it the hours, is it something else? What would you say is the sort of thing that is just, you have to motivate yourself a little bit more for that?
Alex
Yeah, I mean, I suppose obviously the hours aren’t fun. And I think you are definitely right, I do enjoy the bigger picture. And I suppose sometimes on some tasks you are kind of narrow focusing on the smaller adminy things, which, to be honest, technology and things are definitely moving us away from that. So we do have document production teams, who can do most of those things. But you still end up having to do proofreading of long documents, and just making sure the clause is cross-referenced properly between four or five, six documents. And I mean, it is hard to describe that as fun. But at the same time, you can also take that as an opportunity to figure out – OK, what do these things actually do? So you can look at things in isolation, and go – ok, I need to put this clause in there, and make sure these things connect. But then you can also figure out why do these things connect. And most of the time – actually, in my experience all of the time – if you write down some questions while you’re doing it, and then when you submit it to the associate and go – “Look, I’m done. Everything should be fine now. I have some questions. Is it worth having a call whenever is convenient, or do you want me to write this in an email and we can discuss”. They are very happy to explain these things. And actually a lot of the work I’ve gotten… So I mean, I did some work for one of the associates – early on actually – on operation and maintenance contracts, and that was just a mechanical – Can you proofread this and make sure it all works, which I did. And then from there, I’ve somehow… I say somehow, but clearly it kind of showed I was paying attention to the work I was doing, being engaged, even if it was kind of a more mundane task. And that’s led to me seeing these contracts through, so liaising with the client and with the other side to get these contracts out, seeing them signed and executed. I was in charge of writing the instructions for those, and making sure everything was compiled, and then kind of carrying it over into another task, when they said – “Look, we’ve got more time to look at these. So based on what you’ve done, and based on discussions we’ve had, and the questions you’ve asked, I want you to really focus on these. Because we’re at early stages in this matter, so you can take more time to ask questions, to apply what you’ve done in the previous one, and see where the similarities and differences are, because at this stage now you’re getting to grips with this type of contract”. And I mean, that’s applied to a lot of things, to be honest, even stuff like the check books. I mean, there was this one matter that I was on right from the start, which they kept saying – “Oh, yes, it’s going to close soon, it will close soon”. It took forever to close. But then the associate I was working for went on holiday, so I ended up working directly for my supervisor in another matter. And he said – “Look, you’ve done these things before, so I’m going to put you essentially in charge of corresponding with the local council, with the document checklists, with making sure this, that and the other is in order”. And to an extent, that is almost a trial by fire. You’ve gone through the shallow pass, now let’s throw you into the deep end. But it also means you can really expand upon what you’ve been doing before. So mundane tasks do have kind of a direct lead up into more exciting things, essentially.
Kate
So it sounds like a way of motivating yourself to do these more mundane tasks is, again, seeing the bigger picture, how they fit in, but also being quite proactive and not just kind of – “Oh, this is what you asked me to do. So this is what I’ve done”. You are asking those questions, you’re kind of showing interest, and then people are responding to that and saying – “All right, OK, if you’re interested, we can get you involved in this, and get you involved in that”. And I think having spoken to employers in different sectors as well, I think it’s the same in any situation. If you show an enthusiasm for something and you kind of ask those questions, people respond to that. If you do just the minimum, what’s been required of you and don’t kind of initiate anything, it’s quite easy to just fall under the radar. And I think it’s something you mentioned earlier, is that idea of visibility in the physical office situation, if you were kind of someone who was quite active in asking questions or, you know, there early and staying late, it’s kind of – oh, that person’s working hard, or they seem really keen. Actually, you can show that enthusiasm and interest, and keenness even when you’re not physically there. So that’s, I think, a really interesting point.
Alex
It’s not only about starting early and ending late, because anybody can do that on a mechanical task. It’s just kind of taking that step forward and actually asking… Because you could work that long on whatever, you could even work less time and still kind of be a bit more proactive with it. And people do respond – the associates and partners – do respond to that. And as I say, it does lead on to more things, and they will more happily get you involved in things. And, to be honest, even now, I did work for a group of two, three, four associates, and then kind of when I had quiet periods I could just message one of them and say – “Look, I’ve got some capacity, do you have anything I can do?” And they are, nine times out of ten, like – “Yes, I’ve got something, let me get you involved in it and get you up to speed with it”. So there is definitely a benefit to making yourself visible, making yourself available, and proving you are interested in what you’re doing.
Kate
So for students or recent graduates who are thinking about getting into law, what do you think the key challenges are going to be for the sector over the next few years? Because there’s a lot going on, isn’t there? So it’s kind of, I don’t know where you want to start with that. But just in terms of stuff that people should maybe start researching or thinking about, anticipating, what kind of skills might be useful to develop. Anything that kind of springs to mind that would be a key issue for them.
Alex
In the long term I don’t think offices are going to be completely redundant, I think there is going to be more of a switch to kind of a semi-virtual, semi-office culture. Based on what I’ve seen so far, I think it’s mostly going to be kind of trainees and associates going into the office for the more, I suppose, day to day work. And it might be the kind of senior associates and partners who are taking the opportunity to work from home, because they don’t necessarily need to be in all the time. And to an extent, that does fall under them looking after their own work-life balance, which I can completely understand. But I think there is going to be this view of – we’re not going to be back in the office full-time. I mean, that’s not based on any particular evidence, but it’s just kind of that the trajectory we seem to be going on. I suppose it is about trying to make yourself available even when you’re not there face to face. And that does require that little step further and being a bit more proactive with the tasks, and asking questions around what you’re doing, and how specifics work. Because at the end of the day, for trainees, we are there to be trained and – that sounds very receptive – but we also have to kind of meet lawyers there halfway. We have to kind of suggest what we want to learn, because the law and commercial law is so broad that it’s impossible for them just to teach you everything. You need to try and figure out – ok, what do you understand, what can’t you understand, and how do you kind of approach people, because you’re there on the job, the other lawyers are doing their jobs, they’re not teachers whose sole purpose is to kind of lecture or teach you as such. So I suppose it is learning to be proactive, and learning to form those relationships with the people you work with, even if you’re not in the office. And I mean, there’s definitely a balance to be struck. You can’t obviously be Skyping away every minute of the day that; there is an element of, you have to figure out for yourself how things work. And if you can’t, then you write an email at the end, or halfway through, and say – “Look, this is where I’m at. This is what I need a bit of help with, can we schedule in a call?” or something along those lines. And people tend to be pretty responsive at this point, people are learning how to use Skype and email with a bit more frequency. And so it is just a case of – “I’ll give you a call in five, ten minutes” or “Leave that point for now, and we’ll get back to it at the end”. But I suppose it is just that focus on the little things, you have to be more flexible, firstly. It’s not… And to be honest, future generations will probably take this for granted, but we’re the ones living through the change, so we need to take the most flexible approach with it. But yeah, be proactive with it. Try your best, and just essentially be the change.
Kate
So it’s having that enthusiasm, that curiosity, but also that confidence to ask questions, follow things up. And it sounds like also, as you point out, we are going through this massive period of change. But, yeah, you’re right, change is always happening, there’s always world events. So having that flexible attitude and being able to adapt to new technology and/or new ways of working is really important. So just to keep thinking about how perhaps students are doing that right now with adapting to studying online, and how they’ve sort of managed that process, and thinking about how they would perhaps do that in the workplace, how that’s a useful learning skill – or learning experience, sorry – for them if that was to happen in the future again. Or as you say, if we get into this hybrid model of in the future where we’re sort of both part office based and part remote based at the same time. Anything else in terms of practical steps that you think students could do to sort of make themselves more employable? Because it is pretty competitive to get that foot in the door, to get the training contract or whatever that version is going to look like, but to sort of get a job, let’s say, within a law firm. Is there anything sort of now that you think would be worth them doing?
Alex
Talk to people. I mean, I know I’ve spoken to a few people on LinkedIn who have said – “Look, I see you work in project finance. I’m interested in this area. Can we talk about it for a bit?” And nine times out of ten – Absolutely! I’m busy today, but can we have a chat tomorrow? or something like that. Yeah, and just kind of being willing to make yourself available and to listen, I suppose, is the really important one. Because these things do… The partner who interviewed me was in project finance. Yeah, I mean, I spoke to him over coffee at my vocation scheme and that in no small part influenced me when I said – “Look, I want to do project finance”, just because it sounded really interesting when he spoke about it, which I wouldn’t necessarily have gotten from just doing a Google search about it. I think, to be honest, the legal industry is one built on personal connections and, not in the nepotistic way, but in terms of learning from people, and being available for them, listening to what they have to say. So I’d definitely say – approach people, maybe virtually.
Kate
So with those LinkedIn approaches, did you have any kind of specific theme in common with them – like you’d gone to the same university, or were from the same area. Or was it literally you had found like – “You’re working in the type of area that I’m really keen on. Please, could we connect and have a chat?”, so there was kind of no other connection other than your interest in their work.
Alex
It was basically just, I mean, I think if you were just – “Look, I’ve got a friend who’s interested. Do you mind if I introduce you?”. Obviously, that’s perfectly fine. But I think if this person had just popped up on LinkedIn and said – “I’m interested”. Then I’d happily have just jumped on anyway. It is just taking an interest. I mean, there’s the assumption that lawyers love to talk about themselves, but there is definitely a sense of – I don’t know if everybody views it the same way, but that’s definitely how I tended to view it. And I think that’s always an important connection to make early in the career in terms of figuring out: a) what you want to do or don’t want to do, and b) trying to figure out how you go about it.
Kate
It’s funny, because I think a lot of people are worried about just randomly contacting and asking someone for help. But the worst that can happen is they say no or they ignore you, like that is literally the worst that can happen. And the best that can happen is, as you found, it gives you a deeper understanding of the sector you’re thinking about going into, it could influence the choices you make, and it might even lead to job or work experience opportunities. So it really sounds like it’s really worth trying to build those connections with people, and have those conversations. You know, you’re going to get, like, bombarded on LinkedIn now with people listening to this podcast.
Alex
Yes. I mean, I suppose based on that, it was very obvious that at careers events, because I volunteered to go to careers fairs and online events. And to an extent, you do get the normal questions, just kind of the generic ones. I mean, sometimes you get some really out there ones like “How much do you expect to get paid when you are made a partner?”, those tend to be a no no. And then you get the usual ones of “How many hours you’re working?”, etc. When you get really personal ones, where somebody hasn’t just gone to this event or sent this LinkedIn message just off the cuff, just because they can. But they’ve actually thought about it, done some research beforehand and then said… Actually, exactly as I said, once you’re in the industry, you figure out what you can first, and then you ask that informed question. And they really stand out on LinkedIn and careers events. And definitely the graduate recruitment notice these types of questions. And in my experience, people who ask those questions tend to be the ones who get the jobs. Just being a bit more informed, being a bit proactive with these things, and kind of almost proving they’ve been more proactive than just sending a message or asking a question. And they really stand out, and they make people want to hire them, or help them, or whatever it is.
Kate
Well, for more info about the careers we’ve mentioned today, I’m going to add some relevant links to the episode description and a link to the full transcript of today’s show. But I just want to say thank you so much, Alex, for giving up your time on your day off today. And for all that advice, it’s been really, really useful and I really appreciate it.
Alex
Thank you very much!
Kate
Thank you for joining us this week on ‘What Do You Actually Do?’ This episode was hosted by Kate Morris, edited by Stephen Furlong, and produced by both of us. If you love this podcast, spread the word and follow us. Are you eager to get more tips? Follow University of York Careers and Placements on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. All useful links or in this episode’s description. This has been produced at the University of York Careers and Placements. For more information visit york.ac.uk/careers
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